Curse

Garrett · Jul 12, 2005, 04:18 PM // 16:18

My guild has been running an earth ele spike build + wards lately in HoH. Works great as long as you have good coordination on the spikes.

knives · Jul 12, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Hmm...What if you had a group of 5-6 geomancers, and 2-3 healing/prot monks?

Start spamming the wards near your location (but go like 2 at a time, ie. two eles put up WaM, WaF, WaE, and then just wait for the team to come to them) you could probably do this when you could see your enemy on your map. Then if they go in and try to AoE you in the wards, cast obsidian flesh, and make the monks cast spellbreaker. So nothing can hurt you but physical and elemental weapons. But you have WaM and WaE on so that damage is basically halved.

Then the real trouble is this: you have to wait till the opponents come to you, which could result in a pretty long game. Line up your air eles in front of your monks, and have them use earthquake/shock simultaneously (or half of them could use earthquake, and then the other half would follow up with aftershock) the quickly put up a ward against foes so they can't escape when its too late. And then all but one of the eles use crystal wave, while the other one uses eruption. If they are not dead, then they are blinded atleast, and if they are still not dead, finish them with obsidian flame.

The hard part about this is that you would have to kill the priest, and since earth magic is pretty defensive, it would be hard to just run in and slaughter him. You could probably have one or two eles stay outside and use grasping earth + WaF. And if they rush in to attack your priest, hurry up and kill their priest, and then use armor of mist for a quick speed boost (and armor if they try to get in your way) and hurry up and try to defend him. I'm guessing if the eles just all use obsidian flame on the priest at once, he will die fast. (try to save OF for this purpose only though, because OF is spammable, and therefore many abuse it, and it drains you) Then you could probably tell the monks to get in there and heal them asap and put up WaE and WaM, and then repeat from the beginning. They will most likely retreat, and thats when you run up and use WaF and grasping earth. Then your group keeps running up and earthquake! and aftershock and crystal wave/eruption again.

I haven't tried this tactic out yet, but it seems like it would be really suprising to use in Tombs. Would own KotH. For right now, I don't see any flaws in it, as if you could use staffs which allow upgrades, so get the highest enchanting one you can find (is there an enchanting staff mod? if not, use a sword or something) when you have obsidian flesh on (same with monks and spell breaker). Attr. distribution would probably be like:

Earth 12 + 3 + hat
Water 8
Energy Storage 10

And add a sup vigor if you have it.

acidteardrop · Jul 12, 2005, 05:01 PM // 17:01

A sword would be better. At the Henge of Denravi you can craft a sword that gives +5 energy. Throw a 20% enchanting sword pommel on there (maybe a zealous hilt if you felt so inclined), and that leaves your second open for a 12/20/20 scroll.

Has anybody actually tested any of their theories?

Tuna · Jul 12, 2005, 08:11 PM // 20:11

The problem with multiple melee ranger characters is that its hard to get them all in range of a target and its painfully obvious when you do. Nothing will send someone running like 4 eles crowding around you.

acidteardrop · Jul 12, 2005, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Very true, and that's my main point in this thread. Who would stand next to an elementalist, especially when it's obvious he's a geomancer after the first spell?

catharsis · Jul 12, 2005, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Seems to me Earth would work best with Air... I'm thinking a 3 attribute pure elementalist build (those + energy storage, maybe with ME secondary to divvy up points between energy storage and inspiration). Pack a lightning wand to set off Thunderclap.

Thunderclap (E)
Whirlwind
Aftershock
Obsidian Flame
WaM or WaE

Leaves you with 3 extra skill slots. You've got two ways to knock down, so you've got a bit of spammability (Whirlwind if they get close to you, Thunderclap otherwise). Depending on how expensive the other skills you choose are and how much you plan on using Thunderclap (burns some SERIOUS energy), you'll probably want a DAMN good way to recharge energy

Eonwe · Jul 12, 2005, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidteardrop

I've been to the hall once for not very long, as my entire team was very uncoordinated. However, I was referring to how much enchantment removal I've heard about. Good luck keeping your earth/kinetic armour on. On top of that, there's the fact that no melee fighter is going to stand in a ward if you're tanking them, and nobody with a bit of sense is going to sit there and let you aftershock them. There's a cooldown time on earthquake, which gives them time to get up and get away before you can hit with the extra damage. By the time you get to Crystal Wave, they're already gone. Maybe I over-estimate human intelligence.

Maybe I over-estimated how much of a newbie and/or complete retard you are. Teams do bring a lot of enchantment removal to tombs, since the flavor of the month seems to be builds that include a spirit spamming ranger. You're correct in that aspect.

Good luck keeping my earth/kinetic armour on? What? Who the hell uses kinetic armor in pvp? I could also care less about losing my attunement since whoever I am spiking will be dead in one shot. No melee fighter is going to sit in a ward and swing at me? Why the hell would they be swinhing at me... they should be swinging at my monks. AND if there is a ward it's not like they have a god damn choice not to.

It's not hard to surround someone for an earth spike, especially if you have a snare. You don't even need to do that in the hall either. Just send your 4-5 earth elementalists onto the dias, where people will be standing. Pick a target, any target, it really doesn't matter. Then you earthquake... and as soon as they fall down use aftershock. It's that simple.

I know there's a cooldown time on earthquake. Thanks for pointing that one out captain obvious. Does that have to do with anything at all though? No, it doesn't. But please, tell me how they are going to have time to run away while they are on the ground.They won't be getting up either, because they'll be dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidteardrop

I believe if you're standing next to someone, Pheonix would do much the same, and they don't have to be knocked down. So if you're standing on top of them for aftershock anyway...
It also has a much bigger area of effect. The only drawback is that a lot of people have fire resistance on their torso. Well, that and there aren't any fire buffs to take the melee damage.

Phoneix would do much the same? Are you dumb? Phoenix will not do anywhere close to the amount of damage an earthquake/aftershock combo will do. Also, I honestly have no clue what you're talking about people having fire resistance on their torso.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidteardrop

I tried that a while ago. It's very nice for knocking out a monk or other caster (provided there's no Obsidian Flesh/Spell Breaker on hand). However, it's absolutely horrendous for PvE. You can only take out one target at a time. The drawback, of course, is exaustion. You can get through it, but it's a pain.

You were refering to iron mist I believe. You say it's nice for knocking out a monk or another caster? you do realize that iron mist is a snare, and does no damage? You also say it has a drawback... exhaustion. Iron mist does not cause exhaustion. Nice try trying to look intelligent though, I applaud your effort.

So next time, before you try to insult someone... get a clue as to what you're talking about.

Vandal · Jul 12, 2005, 10:41 PM // 22:41

So....errr this AcidTearDrop business is a pretty Big Nub hey?

knives · Jul 13, 2005, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidteardrop

Very true, and that's my main point in this thread. Who would stand next to an elementalist, especially when it's obvious he's a geomancer after the first spell?

Umm..check out the earth spells? Grasping Earth + WaF would MAKE them stay. And as the people from IS said, they will be knocked down constantly, so even if they manage to get up, they still have to get past your wards and grasping earth.

Odd Sock · Jul 13, 2005, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by knives

Umm..check out the earth spells? Grasping Earth + WaF would MAKE them stay. And as the people from IS said, they will be knocked down constantly, so even if they manage to get up, they still have to get past your wards and grasping earth.

You can't keep someone down constantly. Energy doesn't grow on trees you know and Earthaquakes cost 25 energy. The idea is to EQ and Aftershock in single bursts, not random EQ's all over the place and hitting random Aftershocks. Besides there's a cap on speed reductions, I believe it's 66%. All this Ward and Earth thing is basically useless and/or overkill.

knives · Jul 13, 2005, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odd Sock

You can't keep someone down constantly. Energy doesn't grow on trees you know and Earthaquakes cost 25 energy. The idea is to EQ and Aftershock in single bursts, not random EQ's all over the place and hitting random Aftershocks. Besides there's a cap on speed reductions, I believe it's 66%. All this Ward and Earth thing is basically useless and/or overkill.

I didn't know there was a cap with speed reductions..then why does iron mist reduce speed by 90%? Is it just something that bypasses that law? You could always bring gale/shock, though it costs less energy(5), it causes exhaustion and only focuses on one foe. Maybe use it to quickly knockdown targeted foe, use grasping earth and run up to the target and everyone orgies crystal wave?

Zeru · Jul 13, 2005, 05:50 AM // 05:50

You can't stack multiple skills to go over the 66% cap.

Iron mist is a single skill and therefore it does not apply. IM is a really really underrated skill btw. Most people don't appreciate snares enough.

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 06:05 AM // 06:05

gemancers are good. but atm with all the spirit spamming around... it might or might not be a good idea to make one.

Tengoku No Yushosha · Jul 13, 2005, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

You can't stack multiple skills to go over the 66% cap.

Iron mist is a single skill and therefore it does not apply. IM is a really really underrated skill btw. Most people don't appreciate snares enough.

Only Iron Mist can go over 66% because it gives immunity to the hexed foe.

Tellani Artini · Jul 13, 2005, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Consider 3 earth eles. The first carries glyph of sacrifice, earthquake, aftershock, and stoning. The second carries earthquake, aftershock, and stoning. The third carries earthquake, aftershock, stoning, and ward against foes. Glyphs of elemental power or energy will be nice for the second and third.

The first ele engages glyph of sacrifice, then all three stand next to a target. The glyph user hits their instant earthquake and he and the third ele use aftershock. The second ele begins casting earthquake as soon as the first one hits; the cast time is three seconds, which is equal to knockdown time, so the target while go down again immediately. After his aftershock, the third ele casts ward against foes to prevent retreat. When the second earthquake hits, the second ele hits with aftershock and the third begins another earthquake. During the casting, the first and second hit with stoning. At 12 earth magic, you've knock-locked the area for ~10 seconds and delivered 678 damage to the area (from earthquake and aftershock) with an additional 152 to a single target (from stoning). Have a hammer warrior use crushing blow on one target for an instant deep wound. Enjoy.

Mitsu Bishi · Jul 13, 2005, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Exactly something like that was what I was thinking about when designing an Earth Ele build. Glyph of Sacrifice on one Ele, Earthquake on the same, Aftershock on the others and Crystal Wave on all of them to finish it up. Only bad thing is that you have to get pretty close to make it useful. It seems to be very strong once you're on the dais in a king of the hill situation though.

Scaphism · Jul 13, 2005, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellani Artini

The second ele begins casting earthquake as soon as the first one hits; the cast time is three seconds, which is equal to knockdown time, so the target while go down again immediately... At 12 earth magic, you've knock-locked the area for ~10 seconds and delivered 678 damage to the area (from earthquake and aftershock) with an additional 152 to a single target (from stoning). Have a hammer warrior use crushing blow on one target for an instant deep wound. Enjoy.

It wouldn't work this way.
First, aftercast times are going to ruin your day. It's .75s on normal spells and 1.75s on PBAoE (like aftershock and crystal wave).

Anyone who stands adjacent to (arm's reach) of a geomancer for 3 seconds is asking to get clobbered. Congratulations, you've rediscovered another way to kill bad players. Glyph of Sacrifice doesn't affect this in any meaningful way- instead of a 3 second cast time, you have a 1.75s cast time (you still have to cast the glyph (1s cast) and deal with the Gylphs aftercast (.75s). So you might catch most teams unprepared the first time you use GOS, but after the first surprise good teams will adapt, and you now have 7 skills on your bar + GOC. It's a nice trick to pull out of your sleeve and surprise people with, but it's not a reliable tactic (especially since EQ can't be used for another 2.5 minutes).

Try nailing any non-intoxicated target with Earthquake and following it up with Aftershock...and you'll find out flaw #2 in the plan. Most knockdowns only last ~1 second. Gale, Backbreaker, and Knockdowns while using Stonefist Gauntlets are the only exceptions. When they take a half step backwards during the casting animation and another step back while you're recovering from aftercast, you will A) miss with aftershock entirely or B) not get the bonus damage because they've already gotten up.

Unless the guys casting Earthquake are Warrior Primaries with Stonefist gauntlets, there's no way you get any kind of knocklock, let alone 10 seconds of it.

Earthquake + Aftershock works, it just requires a team dedicated to it. The one casting Earthquake will not be adding his own aftershock to the combo.

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

It wouldn't work this way.
First, aftercast times are going to ruin your day. It's .75s on normal spells and 1.75s on PBAoE (like aftershock and crystal wave).

Anyone who stands adjacent to (arm's reach) of a geomancer for 3 seconds is asking to get clobbered. Congratulations, you've rediscovered another way to kill bad players. Glyph of Sacrifice doesn't affect this in any meaningful way- instead of a 3 second cast time, you have a 1.75s cast time (you still have to cast the glyph (1s cast) and deal with the Gylphs aftercast (.75s). So you might catch most teams unprepared the first time you use GOS, but after the first surprise good teams will adapt, and you now have 7 skills on your bar + GOC. It's a nice trick to pull out of your sleeve and surprise people with, but it's not a reliable tactic (especially since EQ can't be used for another 2.5 minutes).

Try nailing any non-intoxicated target with Earthquake and following it up with Aftershock...and you'll find out flaw #2 in the plan. Most knockdowns only last ~1 second. Gale, Backbreaker, and Knockdowns while using Stonefist Gauntlets are the only exceptions. When they take a half step backwards during the casting animation and another step back while you're recovering from aftercast, you will A) miss with aftershock entirely or B) not get the bonus damage because they've already gotten up.

Unless the guys casting Earthquake are Warrior Primaries with Stonefist gauntlets, there's no way you get any kind of knocklock, let alone 10 seconds of it.

Earthquake + Aftershock works, it just requires a team dedicated to it. The one casting Earthquake will not be adding his own aftershock to the combo.

Screw the math. Earthquake and aftershock works. How do I know? I used this combo multiple times.

Geos are scary... in all honesty... :/ Most ppl are just not prepared to deal with them as well as an air ele.

Odd Sock · Jul 13, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

Screw the math. Earthquake and aftershock works. How do I know? I used this combo multiple times.

Geos are scary... in all honesty... :/ Most ppl are just not prepared to deal with them as well as an air ele.

We've run a combo similar to the Ward Against Noobz EQ+Aftershock build. You really need alot of practice with it and you need a 5 slot offense for it. 1 Earthquaker and 4 Aftershock+Crystal Wavers. When you get good enough that snares don't matter anymore (by the time the El's get there the Earthquake goes off and you just hit Afterhsock) it becomes deadly. We just ran it for one night and were getting vertical bars on the score chart consistently. Just don't expect that one geomancer will make a difference. As I said, you need 5 slots to make it work.

In regards to handling them, you simply can't. If you pull it off right the monk regardless of any enchantments will get knocked down and die right away. Even if he has Prot Spirit on and takes say 48 damage, that's (48*2)*4 for 386 damage. Then an additional 400+ damage from the Crystal Waves as well as the initial hit from Earthquake. If they have no defenses up they simply die. Not to mention any other targets that get hit from the AoE will suffer the same faith.

Why you don't see alot of this ? It's hard to pull off and any form of energy denial will pwn this team hard. Furthermore, any Fertile Season and/or Symbiosis will help prevent the spike.

acidteardrop · Jul 13, 2005, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Maybe I over-estimated how much of a newbie and/or complete retard you are. Teams do bring a lot of enchantment removal to tombs, since the flavor of the month seems to be builds that include a spirit spamming ranger. You're correct in that aspect.

"You're an idiot, but you're right." Good call.

Quote:

Good luck keeping my earth/kinetic armour on? What? Who the hell uses kinetic armor in pvp? I could also care less about losing my attunement since whoever I am spiking will be dead in one shot. No melee fighter is going to sit in a ward and swing at me? Why the hell would they be swinhing at me... they should be swinging at my monks. AND if there is a ward it's not like they have a god damn choice not to.

I've already stated that wards are useful if cast next to the monk. That example was assuming you're not standing next to your monk.

Quote:

It's not hard to surround someone for an earth spike, especially if you have a snare. You don't even need to do that in the hall either. Just send your 4-5 earth elementalists onto the dias, where people will be standing. Pick a target, any target, it really doesn't matter. Then you earthquake... and as soon as they fall down use aftershock. It's that simple.

Assuming all they're doing while standing on the dias is standing idle. If there are so many people on the dias, and you have no enchantments (as an elementalist primary), why aren't you being interrupted by the mesmers and rangers, knocked down by warriors, and taking an otherwise heavy beating? Granted I'd imagine some people would try to avoid being your next target by putting someone else in the way, but if there are so many people on the dias, I'd bet they're doing something other than sitting idle. So with your strategy you take one person out at a time, while the rest of them beat on you? What if they have a protective bond on? Four elementalists hitting twice each is eight hits. Why, that's only 40% of their life.

Quote:

and as soon as they fall down use aftershock.

See later in this post, about aftercast times. Actually, see the next line, since you already know.

Quote:

I know there's a cooldown time on earthquake.

Oh, so you already know? Then why did you go on needlessly in the rest of this paragraph? They're going to have plenty of time to run away. Almost two seconds. That's enough time to get away from aftershock, which has a tiny area of effect.

[/quote]Thanks for pointing that one out captain obvious. Does that have to do with anything at all though? No, it doesn't. But please, tell me how they are going to have time to run away while they are on the ground.They won't be getting up either, because they'll be dead.[/quote]
Because you're being hit by someone else, possibly having your spells interrupted. Again, you're assuming 1v1, rather than a team working together. Also, see above.

Quote:

Phoneix would do much the same? Are you dumb? Phoenix will not do anywhere close to the amount of damage an earthquake/aftershock combo will do.

Pheonix has an area damage as well as an impact damage. That's two numbers. Aftershock has an initial damage and a secondary if they're knocked down. That's two numbers. I said nothing about earthquake. Use Gale to knock them down for all I care. That might work better, actually, because if you knock them down for three seconds you have enough time to cast Aftershock before they're standing up and mobile. Try that with earthquake against someone who's smart enough to take a few steps back.

Let me explain this a bit better. Pheonix has the same two numbers as Aftershock. Pheonix doesn't require them to be knocked down. Pheonix has a much bigger area of effect. Pheonix WILL hit them for at least some damage if they run away. Aftershock won't hit for anything if they step back a little bit. It also won't hit for its second burst unless they're knocked down.

Quote:

Also, I honestly have no clue what you're talking about people having fire resistance on their torso.

Pyromancer and Drakescale armour are quite common. You'd be right if you said I was wrong because I assumed that statement. Because I did, and I admit that folley. However, I'll amend it to say that some people have fire resistance on their torso.

[/quote]You were refering to iron mist I believe. You say it's nice for knocking out a monk or another caster? you do realize that iron mist is a snare, and does no damage? You also say it has a drawback... exhaustion. Iron mist does not cause exhaustion.[/quote]
Yeah, but Chain Lightning does, as do a few other spells you'd use to hit them with only lightning damage. I know it does no damage. But snaring them so they can't run out of your spell range, then doing an air spike... That sorta works, huh? Unless they cast Spell Breaker.

Quote:

Nice try trying to look intelligent though, I applaud your effort.

Thanks. Same to you.

So next time, before you try to insult someone... get a clue as to what you're talking about.[/QUOTE]
I'd like you to cite where I insulted anyone. There might be a little troll here and there in this thread, but nothing overt and certainly no flames. Not like yours, anyway.

My favourite person right now.

Quote:

It wouldn't work this way.
First, aftercast times are going to ruin your day. It's .75s on normal spells and 1.75s on PBAoE (like aftershock and crystal wave).

Anyone who stands adjacent to (arm's reach) of a geomancer for 3 seconds is asking to get clobbered. Congratulations, you've rediscovered another way to kill bad players. Glyph of Sacrifice doesn't affect this in any meaningful way- instead of a 3 second cast time, you have a 1.75s cast time (you still have to cast the glyph (1s cast) and deal with the Gylphs aftercast (.75s). So you might catch most teams unprepared the first time you use GOS, but after the first surprise good teams will adapt, and you now have 7 skills on your bar + GOC. It's a nice trick to pull out of your sleeve and surprise people with, but it's not a reliable tactic (especially since EQ can't be used for another 2.5 minutes).

Try nailing any non-intoxicated target with Earthquake and following it up with Aftershock...and you'll find out flaw #2 in the plan. Most knockdowns only last ~1 second. Gale, Backbreaker, and Knockdowns while using Stonefist Gauntlets are the only exceptions. When they take a half step backwards during the casting animation and another step back while you're recovering from aftercast, you will A) miss with aftershock entirely or B) not get the bonus damage because they've already gotten up.

Unless the guys casting Earthquake are Warrior Primaries with Stonefist gauntlets, there's no way you get any kind of knocklock, let alone 10 seconds of it.

Earthquake + Aftershock works, it just requires a team dedicated to it. The one casting Earthquake will not be adding his own aftershock to the combo.

The only other person who realizes that there's about a 1.65 second cooldown time for Earthquake. And that the knockdown only lasts one second. Thanks for articulating this a bit more clearly than I did.